Harold,
'As it happens" I'm re-reading 'The Morning of the Magicians' by Pauwels and Bergier., a read I recommend.
Last night I stumbled onto something that made me think of your above post.
In the magicians morning P & B quote 'Griffin", The Invisible Man in H.G.Wells novel, saying: "People, even cultivated people, have no idea of the forces concealed in scientific books. These volumes contain marvels and miracles".


They then quote Teilhard du Chardin, in my opinion one of the most brain window opening philosophers of our time, when they continue:

'A new generation of scientists is born. "These are men" ( wish they would have added "& woman" here, but still what they say is nice enough) ; "These are men who believe themselves to be, not disinterested seekers after truth and spectators, but as Teilhard du Chardin has so finely described them, 'ouvriers de la terre', who have linked their destiny to that of humanity and made themselves largely responsible for that destiny."

Science, I feel, was given to (wo)mankind, as a tool to find it's Destiny; just as much as Spirituality.
I feel so strongly the two are linked together and will end up at the same refugio .
Scientists as well as spiritual leaders, have a big responsibility as to what they bring into this world. A responsibility that needs to be handled with care.
Gee I'm serious here! will go for a laugh soon, but before I do, one more thing: This careful brain opening is one of the things I have respect for in MC's work.
He's not dogmatic and leaves space for one's own thinking.

Dear Kickup, Thank you!

I was hoping you'd say something. I agree with you completely!
See, and I didn't even run away - seems I'm getting useed to these message board opinions.

Faith, Religion, Logic, Wisdom - what wonderful tools to keep us occupied.

I'd have to add a caveat to what I said above. If you want to talk about spirituality, that's different than faith or religion. I think altered frequencies spirituality produces will be studied and defined by science through advanced scientific experiments someday in the future. In this case, then, science and spirituality would be mutually supportive.

Easy, NormaStar5. The rule here is: You can disagree with the thoughts of another poster, just don't make personal attacks while disagreeing. Your post was deleted because I felt it was filled with personal attacks.

You are more than welcome to post another response -- as long as it doesn't get personal. This is supposed to be a fun, intelligent board. We've all been through a lot of angst during the State of Fear years. Let's keep it civil, everyone.

ADMIN

Hello KickUp,

How the tide does change. You should make up your mind.

I do not agree with your caveat -- please explain further.

Science is ongoing - through trial and error. And, there is a lot more error than discovery.
Religion is not - you either have faith, or not.

And, Harold Lee, I do not believe biologist have all the answers -- except in hypotheticals and science fiction. And, I do enjoy fiction - Jules Verne used fiction to bridge for us the possibilities.

How's that?




_________________

Faith, belief, religion & spirituality are all slightly different things. And science, completely different. I have not changed my mind on anything I said above; that religion and science are not mutually supportive.

I'll give what I believe to be the definitions of the five words, based on my readings about them:

Faith - Following a pretext of knowing something to be true without involving the process of logic.
Belief - Using logic to come to a conclusion that your idea, data, knowing, is, based on your best evidence, true.
Religion - The category attached to mutual believers in a following pertaining to God; ie., Christianity, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.
Spirituality - The personal condition of heightened awareness of God and realms of conscious or unconscious being and a level of juncture with His presence or of that of universal thought.
Science - The study of a subject or object by employing the scientific method, ie., rigorous experimentation, data gathering, findings, conclusion, and consistent reproducible results.

Religion and science are like comparing apples and steak.

The electromagnetic quality of the human body and its mind while in a state of spirituality can be measured in levels of Alpha, Beta, Theta etc, wave and frequency output. I believe, based on my readings, that one day science will discover even more about the altered states of spirituality.

Friends: I have to defend again a small population of humanity, the scientists. No scientists, biologists including me, will admit they have answers to everything. In fact, we have more questions than answers. Scientists are subjected to change. If our results indicate otherwise, we change our mind. And we will change our theory and change our approach to a problem. Sciences are to probe the nature, to find what nature has in store for us. Scientists do not create. Unfortunately, many do misunderstand the role of scientists play in society. I believe it is due to the sensationalization by the media to sell stories. For example, Craig Venter reported that he was successful in inserting a short DNA into the gene of the simplist virus. And the reporter used the title "Creation of life". Even in this Forum, he or she construed that to be human life. Plants have lives too. Gene hunters have identifed many inheritable and harmful genes, such as the Alzheimer, Tah Sac, hemophilia, sickle cell, 2 breast cancer genes,etc. They worked out the nucleotide sequence and number (technical detail), but we still don't know how these defective or mutated genes that make us sick let alone how to use these knowledge to cure the diseases. That just mean we don't have the answers for such diseases. Hopefully we will have them like we do for headaches. Then we will ask more question and go to another problems. I just finished James Watson's booked entitled " DNA " who was awarded a Nobel Prize for his discovery on the structure of DNA, chemical base of genes. He is posting more questions than answers. It is a very easy to read. Fast reader can do it in a couple of days. By the way, the word "ANSWER" can carry different context depending on personal views and believes. In sciences, this word means we scientists will have more questions. It means an answer can generate more questions. For example, we asked what a gene was. Now we know, an answer. Now, we asked how do these genes work. ANs. some genes make proteins. Then, how do these proteins work, and so on. One of the simple genes we have now identified took 15 years and 150 scientists. Finding out something is not as simple as the news media have said.
Actually, if one reads into all MC's works, one can get a impression on how difficult scienctific findings are. But, his plots usually get the upper hand to science.

Welcome back, Admin! We've missed your wise and witty guidance on the board.

ADMIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You're BACK! I am sooooo happy! You were missed very, very much. Hope all is well and that you do not ever do such a lengthy disappearing act on us again. Unless you must.

I never left. Was always lurking. Wanted to see how y'all would do if I took off the training wheels. [wink] Good to see you didn't hurt yourselves.

Now, *hands on hips* back on topic...

Darn!! Recess is over now!!

Ah, Admin, you make us feel so young!

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: Faith, Belief, Religion, Spirituality & Science

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Kickup: Please allow me to make a little modifications on the definitions of the 5 words in your post. Only with respect to science only.

No argument. But I do want to add that science only indicate a trend. It is never absolute. Theories can be changed when new data indicate it be necessary. For example, Newton's apple , i.e. gravity, was not correct (a change in a way). But, we have not found the correct answer yet. When we do, we shall changed the theory of gravity.
However, they do have a common denominator, both are food. Therefore, they can be compared with respect to nutrient contents or other parameters for foods. Science and religion can be compared within the same conceptual framework. But I will not make the comparison.
Dear Adm : Can the above be considered " hands on hips "--